X3Photo Gallery Forums

16 Mar 2010, 11:54

mamo wrote:i really would like such a feature of an e-commerce system. though i am not a technical experienced user i donn ´t know how difficult it would be to offer the possibility to implement the fotoservice of your own choice. lets say i rather would like to use a different fotoservice then i just would have to add the "details" in the adminarea and it would work with every service (or lets say a couple of different ones).
but i guess every service is different so it would be difficult to implement such an "open" standard?

Let me be straight-forward about this, so please forgive me if I sound harsh: Building a complete shopping cart experience in Imagevue is one thing. Connecting it to a multitude of payment processors is another. Handling the callback from the payment processor for confirmation of an order is a 3rd thing. Then taking into consideration that all users want a dozen variable options like type, size, resolution, print, paper, t-shirts and you-name-it. All this has to be built into the Imagevue cart(based upon the print provider who we dont know?), and then forwarded to the the payment processor, and then back to the gallery owner. Now, you are asking if we can even put in a free choice of print providers, that you can just "plugin" to the entire process. This is a somewhat impossible task ... Even the biggest companies like flickr and gallery.mac have their choice of providers, with galleries hosted on their own servers, and with 100s of developers working on them. To put it bluntly, this is out of our capacity ...

Just for the record - Do you know of any other downloadable galleries that provide such e-commerce options? That you can just plugin to any purchase interface and any print-service interface? Do you know ANY gallery service(even hosted) with e-commerce that provides a choice of adding your own print provider?

Unfortunately, we have to operate within certain limitations here.

Sorry if this comes across as technical jargon to many, but I think people are unrealistic about what to expect from a shopping cart in Imagevue. In fact, what you are asking, is for us to make our own version of Fotomoto, but make it better and more flexible by connecting to any odd printing service ...

I understand very well that owners wish to be able to just select their own printing service, but I just can't see how this can be done ... At best, it would be a very incomplete checkout experience for the visitor. At best, it would be something like this:

1. Visitor clicks "purchase" in imagevue interface
2. Visitor has a limited amount of options to select what they are purchasing
3. On checkout, visitor is just forwarded to payment processor. They will be promted to just "Pay Now" with no more details about what they are paying for, and when they will get it. Not very assuring perhaps?
4. Gallery owner gets an email with details on the order, and has to proceed with "shipment" ... Everything from here on is manual communication between buyer and seller.
5A. Now if you do have a print-service provider, you will forward your order to them, and then you will need to make sure they follow up and send the correct package to buyer.
5B. Maybe you dont have a service, and want to print and pack yourself? Sure, but a little tedious perhaps.

Fotomoto does the entire process above, while keeping the buyer on the same interface, handling support, and automating the entire process.

Thanks for feedback! It is very enlightening for us ...

markam24 · 16 Mar 2010, 16:13

Would it really be that difficult to include a paypal cart?

Paypal is based on simply inserting a script (product code) for each corresponding image which includes a buy now button (which users can customize). Clicking the button hands the customer off to paypal.

For you, wouldn't this simply mean providing a field where the paypal code would be entered for each corresponding image? Or would that not work within the flash environment?

In fact, isn't that the very same method Fotomoto uses to trigger the shopping cart? Inserting an script to trigger the cart for each corresponding image?

Forgive me if I'm tottally off on this. But with my limited knowledge it looks as though both methods would be implemented the same way.

If so, it would be such a great selling point for IV to have the option of fotomoto or paypal / self fulfillment.

Paypal would mean you would not need to create an actual eccomerce system or be involved in the back end in any way when the photographer is willing to handle fulfillment.

Shoot me down if I'm totally wrong. Really just thinking out loud.

markam24 · 16 Mar 2010, 16:21

One more thought.

If both fotomoto and paypal are implemented via inserting a script to trigger the cart, could you not just provide the field and we could insert a fotomoto script or paypal script, which ever we prefer.

Appologies if I am over simplifying things or missing something obvious.

markam24 · 16 Mar 2010, 16:43

Actually...I'm testing Fotomoto in WP and it seems a bit more involved to implement than Paypal as a plugin is required. I imagine you would need to create a plugin to implement for IV, correct? I noticed a disclaimer that that flash slideshows are not supported...maybe you have a way around that.

With that in mind, while the fotomoto implementation looks different that paypal...fotomoto also also looks more involved (for you, I mean).

Offering us a paypal option along side it would only mean an additional (option) field for the script, correct?

markam24 · 16 Mar 2010, 17:14

Another major difference between the two systems is Fotomoto apears to require a uniform set of products which are available for each and every photo we sell.

Paypal, however, would allow us to create products specific to each image. The downside being an individual code is required for each specific photo. But I doubt that would be an issue for fine art photographers with a limited number of photos available, and who are specific about the media they use and how a photo should be presented.

Visit here and click on "See Demo"
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cm ... ro-outside

You will see the only requirement on your part would be to provide a field in which the paypal code would be inserted for each photo (product). We, and they (paypal), would handle the rest.

Those concerned about the ugly "buy now" button could create thier own.

I noticed in seperate threads a few others suggesting paypal.

While fotomoto looks really cool, it would be a shame to limit people to that one provider when paypal offers an additional method requiring very little additional development (from what I can see).

Sorry for bombing the thread. My thoughts are coming in waves -;)

16 Mar 2010, 18:22

markam24 wrote:Would it really be that difficult to include a paypal cart?

Paypal is based on simply inserting a script (product code) for each corresponding image which includes a buy now button (which users can customize). Clicking the button hands the customer off to paypal.

Sorry, but I think you are choosing to see the tip of the iceberg here, and I have tried to explain it several times already in my previous posts.

# According to what you are saying, you are ok with just some paypal "add to cart" button. But add what to cart? print? download? what paper? What resolution? Paypal obviously does not handle this ... This would only work if you have a single product, for example a print at a single specific size. Optionally, we could build these options into Imagevue, which would be incredibly difficult as we dont know what options to be available because we dont know who is the print provider. And then on top of this, we have to build an admin module for managing all items with unknown amount of paramters(sounds like web service itself, in fact something similar to Fotomoto, and realistically speaking for those who know the business not plausible unless some big company buys us).

# Next step, if we could do that above, we would forward ALL the specific parameters (print, paper, resolution etc.) to Paypal, which would do NOTHING with them. In fact, it would only be able to forward these parameters in an email to you so you know what the visitor has purchased. In the meantime of course, the visitor is left at a dead end after purchase, not 100% informed about when or how they will receive their product, awaiting some manual reply from owner.

# There is no integration with any print service at the end, and this has to be handled manually by gallery owner. Did you think otherwise? How can we hook up Paypal payment confirmation to any print service? Even if we find some specific print provider that has an API, we cant hook that up with the unspecific data Paypal sends back.

Consider the process as four steps:

#1. Photo-item options selection tool
#2. Add to cart
#3. Payment processing
#4. Provide product to customer

Paypal = 2. Add to cart(very limited) and 3. Payment processing
Fotomoto = 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 (The entire process)

If you use Paypal, it will require three separate services: Imagevue, Paypal and printer-service. The coordination between these 3 services is very limited, particularly because Paypal is not made to handle "options" and can't be a mid-end between the two.

Using Fotomoto, handles the entire process from A to Z.

This is NOT about being able to "Add a Paypal cart", and FOTOMOTO and PAYPAL are two incomparable services. I am not sure I can explain this any better.

16 Mar 2010, 18:36

markam24 wrote:Paypal, however, would allow us to create products specific to each image. The downside being an individual code is required for each specific photo. But I doubt that would be an issue for fine art photographers with a limited number of photos available, and who are specific about the media they use and how a photo should be presented.

Visit here and click on "See Demo"
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cm ... ro-outside

You will see the only requirement on your part would be to provide a field in which the paypal code would be inserted for each photo (product). We, and they (paypal), would handle the rest.

Those concerned about the ugly "buy now" button could create thier own.

I noticed in seperate threads a few others suggesting paypal.

While fotomoto looks really cool, it would be a shame to limit people to that one provider when paypal offers an additional method requiring very little additional development (from what I can see).

Sorry for bombing the thread. My thoughts are coming in waves -;)

Sorry, I really don't get what you are saying here. Paypal would allow you to add products specific to each image? So if you have 5 resolution sizes, 3 paper types and option for download, this would result in dozens of products for each image. Sounds like you have a big job ahead if you have hundreds of images, as you would basically need to create 1000s of products in Paypal. Fotomoto however, handles this as selection options per image.

markam24 wrote:You will see the only requirement on your part would be to provide a field in which the paypal code would be inserted for each photo (product). We, and they (paypal), would handle the rest.

How can Paypal "handle the rest"? It doesnt have parameters for selecting ANY options for the item, unless you create them all manually.

markam24 wrote:While fotomoto looks really cool, it would be a shame to limit people to that one provider when paypal offers an additional method requiring very little additional development (from what I can see).

Sorry, what additional method are we speaking of here? Paypal is only a payment processor. It can not handle picture selection options, and it does not handle the product itself after purchase.

16 Mar 2010, 18:39

markam24 wrote:Actually...I'm testing Fotomoto in WP and it seems a bit more involved to implement than Paypal as a plugin is required. I imagine you would need to create a plugin to implement for IV, correct? I noticed a disclaimer that that flash slideshows are not supported...maybe you have a way around that.

With that in mind, while the fotomoto implementation looks different that paypal...fotomoto also also looks more involved (for you, I mean).

Offering us a paypal option along side it would only mean an additional (option) field for the script, correct?

I can gurantee you, Fotomoto is MUCH easier to integrate ... If we integrate Paypal, about 30% of the job is done. If we integrate Fotomoto, the job is 90% done.

markam24 · 16 Mar 2010, 19:32

Paypal does allow us to create one script for an "Add to Cart" button with multiple options via drop down menu.

I don't think it's nearly as cumbersome or awkward as you suggest.
- We set up the product info and prices for an item within our paypal account
- PayPal generates the script for that item
- We insert the script within a unique field for the image we want to sell (you would need to provide field unique to each photo)
- Customer then has access to "add to cart" button with drop down menu for various options (sizes and whatnot).
- Paypal shopping cart handles payment / check out
- Photographer handles printing and shipment.

In this scenario, what is required in terms of development other than to make the a field for the script available which is unique to each image? Similar to the description or title field. If I am missing something it is certainly here as this is the only part of the process that would actually be handled by IV in this scenario (that I can see).

Otherwise, it seems your not placing any value on the option for a photographer to have control of the printing process.

A good question would be, how many IV users have specifically suggested paypal, and how many have specifically suggested Fotomoto.com? Or more importantly. How many would prefer either option knowing the pros and cons of each?

markam24 · 16 Mar 2010, 19:55

Is the difficulty making a field in which a paypal script would function within the gallery? That would make sense.

17 Mar 2010, 02:41

markam24 wrote:Is the difficulty making a field in which a paypal script would function within the gallery? That would make sense.

Sorry, maybe I have underestimated Paypal somewhat. Do you have a link to a demo where there is an actual cart, where you have several custom selection options per item? This would of course make the integration easier and more seamless for the visitor, similar to Fotomoto in that aspect. Of course, like you mention, I also need to research how to display the Paypal cart alongside the Imagevue flash (popup? popover layer? external page?) ... As you may understand, it would be an immense task for us if we need to build the actual cart with all X options into the Imagevue interface.

markam24 wrote:A good question would be, how many IV users have specifically suggested paypal, and how many have specifically suggested Fotomoto.com? Or more importantly. How many would prefer either option knowing the pros and cons of each?

Well, as mentioned, I dont think they are completely comparable. Paypal is a shopping cart and checkout solution only, while Fotomoto is the same, but also handles the cart item options(dedicated to pictures), print/download service and shipping the final product.

Ultimately we would be able to integrate both options. I know this is feasible with Fotomoto, but I still need more information to see if it can be done with Paypal without biting ourselves in the ass.

Thanks!

henleyb · 17 Mar 2010, 06:58

Shopping cart sounds good to me, would it be in localised currency etc?

17 Mar 2010, 08:37

henleyb wrote:Shopping cart sounds good to me, would it be in localised currency etc?

First of all, this post is really about if we should use Fotomoto for the shopping cart ...

As for localized currency, I dont think Fotomoto has that option. Paypal has that option, but I dont think the visitor can choose currency. I think currency must be pre-defined by the gallery owner ...

markam24 · 17 Mar 2010, 10:09

Completely agree. Both options would be optional if it's possible. Fotomoto does look very good from what I see.

I don't have any examples of paypal items with multiple options. I was going though the setup process online and saw the options within there. If there is time I will create an example on an html page later today.

Thanks for considering it.

17 Mar 2010, 11:50

markam24 wrote:Completely agree. Both options would be optional if it's possible. Fotomoto does look very good from what I see.

I don't have any examples of paypal items with multiple options. I was going though the setup process online and saw the options within there. If there is time I will create an example on an html page later today.

Thanks for considering it.

This is the main pitfall of Paypal, and although I havent been digging too hard, I can't seem to see that Paypal has a self-contained system for selecting options for an item. The best I can find, is that you can "set a limited amount of options", and this has to be in your own website code(then how can you say that paypal handles the cart if you have to build it yourself??) ... I dont see this handled by any Paypal interface in any way ... This of course would mean we need to build the cart+options into the Imagevue interface.

You see, this is why many companies have in fact built and are selling Paypal-compatible webshop solutions ... This means we have to build the entire webshop interface in Imagevue, because this is not handled by Paypal.

Sorry, I kinda got scared away again. I seriously can not find what part of Paypal is our pal. If you think they "handle the shopping cart", I think they only handle the actual gathering of products. They do not handle a versatile, user-configured interface that handles all the options for every item.

I will do some more research, but I still have to see anything that suggests otherwise ...

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