Search…

X3 Photo Gallery Support Forums

Search…
 
User avatar
GeoPal
Experienced
Posts: 200
Joined: 20 Dec 2007, 12:56

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

22 Aug 2018, 07:33

Hi Karl,
This is a cylindrical pano- flat one, only zoom for it, not projected. This is how I personally imagine it:
Flat big pano with zoom
You cannot easily project cylindrical panorama if not shot by phone and don't know the angle, etc...So a photo with no exif- the software will not know what part of the cylinder it does cover and will not be able to properly project it.
About the toggle, if it is not supported and easily implemented, don't sweat over it, was just a suggestion. I also don't mind play button over flat image and inline rotation+ button for full screen. Maybe that is even less annoying.
About marzipano- when I first heard of it several years ago it was just starting. Leading engine for panoramas is krpano, and it can be deployed on a server and crunch tiles on the serverside. But this is maybe not the case here but dynamically loading 2:1 image in a viewer without tiles?
Best, G
 
User avatar
mjau-mjau
X3 Wizard
Posts: 11658
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 03:37

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

22 Aug 2018, 09:54

GeoPal wrote:This is a cylindrical pano- flat one, only zoom for it, not projected. This is how I personally imagine it:
Flat big pano with zoom
Got it. That should be achievable. Would be cool in that link if the view was limited to the image boundaries and it didn't overflow. You have to zoom into it extensively before it can be panned.
GeoPal wrote:About the toggle, if it is not supported and easily implemented, don't sweat over it, was just a suggestion. I also don't mind play button over flat image and inline rotation+ button for full screen. Maybe that is even less annoying.
First priority is to automatically create a panorama "popup" viewer when equirectangular and flat images are clicked from a gallery.
GeoPal wrote:About marzipano- when I first heard of it several years ago it was just starting. Leading engine for panoramas is krpano, and it can be deployed on a server and crunch tiles on the serverside. But this is maybe not the case here but dynamically loading 2:1 image in a viewer without tiles?
Yes krpano at least "was" the leading engine. However, krpano is not open source, and as a viewer, there is nothing krpano can do that marzipano cannot do. Marzipano is created by Google, and used internally by Google (eg Google+).

From a code perspective, marzipano seems more modern and better suited as a transparent viewer plugin.
https://immercode.blog/2018/05/07/choos ... vs-krpano/
I would say that krpano, and the tools that make use of it, is more photographer-friendly, while Marzipano is definitely more of a developer’s choice.
I don't see any reason to expect X3 to crunch gigapixel images on server side into tiles for multi-resolution panoramas. Even if it did, it's still not applicable to X3 galleries where a single image represents a gallery image.
 
User avatar
GeoPal
Experienced
Posts: 200
Joined: 20 Dec 2007, 12:56

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

22 Aug 2018, 10:05

Hi Karl, 
Didn't know marzipano was created by Google, didn't think that way, maybe they have bought it...it doesn't matter. If it is better and opensource, why not?!
Last quote is not mine, nor did I expect X3 to crunch gigapixels, several gigabytes of filesize :) The popup with pano rendition will be awesome itself!
Can't wait for your decision on that, whatever it is I am sure it will be great, as I know you don't compromize quality nor compatibility!
Best, G
p.s. didn't get the part for the overflow, you can now pan even without zooming. Nevermind :)
 
User avatar
mjau-mjau
X3 Wizard
Posts: 11658
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 03:37

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

22 Aug 2018, 10:28

GeoPal wrote:Didn't know marzipano was created by Google, didn't think that way, maybe they have bought it...it doesn't matter. If it is better and opensource, why not?!
Marzipano was bought by Google, and it may not be better than krpano, but it should perform equally well as a renderer.
GeoPal wrote:p.s. didn't get the part for the overflow, you can now pan even without zooming. Nevermind :)
Just because I'm so tuned into panorama topic right now, I would like to comment.

When I first load the page, it looks like this. Ok.
Image

My immediate reaction would be to pan it by clicking the buttons or dragging. The result is this:
Image

In my opinion, the viewer should begin with the image zoomed to boundaries of stage area, and it should not be possible pan or zoom the image further than it's boundaries (it should not be possible to see the black background). After all, that is kinda the point of a panorama viewer.
Image
 
User avatar
GeoPal
Experienced
Posts: 200
Joined: 20 Dec 2007, 12:56

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

22 Aug 2018, 10:37

I see, it will look nicer that way, you are right! Maybe could be scripted, have to check the documentation of krpano.
 
User avatar
mjau-mjau
X3 Wizard
Posts: 11658
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 03:37

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

05 Sep 2018, 04:20

Does anyone have a panorama converted into cube faces (for example with PTgui or KRPano tools)? If so, can you please ZIP it and send to me? I am assuming it is a folder with a structure of subfolders containing cube tiles.

There are definitely advantages of cubic panoramas, and I am investigating possibilities of including support for multi-resolution cubic panoramas directly in the X3 gallery. I already have the idea on how to achieve this with sources created from Marzipano tools, and apparently the format should be compatible with what other tools produce. Benefits of multi-res cubic panoramas (as opposed to equirectangular panorama sources) are:
  • Progressive loading of tiles based on screen size and zoom.
  • Support for higher resolution panoramas.
  • Multi-resolution panoramas (adjust to screen size and/or zoom).
How would it work?
I have already successfully implemented support for equirectangular single-file panoramas, which is quite straight-forward logic: You upload the equirectangular image source, done. For cubic panoramas, it will not be as elegant, but I believe I can offer a workaround like this:
  • Upload a preview/placeholder image for the cubic panorama pano_cube_filename.jpg.
  • Upload folder /pano_cube_filename/ in the same directory, that contains the cubic panorama tiles.
  • X3 will detect the cubic panorama with filename matching dir name,  and create the panorama from sources in the matching directory.
Definitely a "workaround", but I think it would be really nice to offer support for cubic multi-resolution panoramas directly in X3 galleries with as-little-hassle-as-possible. PS! Stay tuned, as I will soon post a link to a panorama mockup gallery here, simulating how panoramas will work in X3.
 
User avatar
GeoPal
Experienced
Posts: 200
Joined: 20 Dec 2007, 12:56

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

05 Sep 2018, 05:52

You've got PM :)
 
User avatar
mjau-mjau
X3 Wizard
Posts: 11658
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 03:37

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

25 Sep 2018, 08:04

Dear panorama folks! We have created a panorama demo that simulates how the panorama plugin may work in X3 once implemented. The demo includes examples of a few different panorama source types. Check it out:
panorama.photo.gallery

Forewords 
First of all, I need to emphasize that attempting to "automate" panorama integration in a web gallery (like X3) is not flawless science. There are reasons why not many web apps automatically support this out-of-the-box, and also a reason why most panorama projects are pre-created from publisher-tools like krpanoptguimarzipano and pano2vr (something X3 is not).

Panorama Achievements Unlocked :star:
As you will find in the demo, we have achieved the following X3 panorama integrations:
  • Gallery support for automatic panoramas from single-file equirectangular sources.
  • Gallery support for panoramas from multi-resolution / multi-file cube panorama sources.
  • Gallery support for multi-resolution / multi-file flat (gigapixel) images.
  • Support to add any of the above to X3 custom content with some basic html tags.
  • Support for loading panorama source tiles from remote CDN (when specified by configuration).
X3 Panorama Viewer
We have created our own pano viewer interface, functionality and controls, although internally we use marzipano as panorama render engine. As you can see in the demo, you can navigate between panoramas directly from the viewer. Buttons, options and controls will be configurable of course, but in the demo, we have included all options. I would also like to me it clear that the panorama "popup" viewer is entirely separate from the standard X3 popup, because they are entirely incompatible. For example, the panorama viewer requires key-controls to control the view (not prev/next), touch "swipe" gestures are reserved for navigating the view, "arrow" buttons must not be confused with prev/next buttons and "zoom" works entirely differently. Although you can mix panorama images in an X3 gallery with non-panorama images, I would say that is a bad idea because it will mix popup methods

Viewer UI Controls
We have included an unprecedented amount of viewer controls:
  • Drag/swipe gestures to navigate the panorama. Obviously.
  • Click or tap (touch) to "look to" any area of the panorama. This is currently set to single-click/tap, although it might be better as double-tap. Thoughts?
  • Deviceorientation "gyroscope" view *only available for mobile devices. This feature is really cool, although at the same time, it's quite useless ... To be able to benefit from "gyroscope" mode, I would literally have to stand up on two feet and rotate myself 360 degrees just to view a panorama, when I can easily achieve the same by swiping with a finger. Personally, I would prefer to keep this option unavailable by default.
  • Arrow keyboard keys left, right, up down.
  • WASD keyboards keys w=up, a=left, s=down, d=left (often used in games)
  • QE keyboard keys to control "roll". PS! Try holding Q+A buttons simultaneously for a rollercoaster ride.
  • -+ keyboard keys to zoom in and out.
  • Buttons zoom in, zoom out, up, down, left and right.
  • Previous/Next scene buttons to navigate between multiple panoramas.
  • Fullscreen button
  • Autorotate / play button
  • View SRC button (opens the src image of the panorama in the standard X3 popup).

Ok, let's get started with the Panorama types ...

---
EQUIRECTANGULAR FORMAT
https://panorama.photo.gallery/#equirect
As referenced earlier in this thread, single-file equirectangular images is the simplest way to display panoramas in X3. There are PROS and CONS with the equirectangular format, but the one huge benefit is that it's a single file that requires no preparation ... You simply upload the equirectangular JPG image source into an X3 gallery, and it will open and render in the panorama viewer.

4096 px width
One of the limitations of equirectangular image sources, is that browsers have a MAX_TEXTURE_SIZE that limits how many px wide the src can be. For modern browsers on modern desktops, this value is a generous 16384 px. However, for the majority of devices, including mobile, the limit is set to 4096 px. This therefore means that logically, you will need to limit your equirectangular image sources to 4096 px. In stats, you will see that 99.99% browsers support 4096 px, while only 22.6% support 16384 px:
http://webglstats.com/webgl/parameter/MAX_TEXTURE_SIZE

This is not really a bad thing, because you will need to limit your image to a reasonable file size for loading into browser anyway. Width 4096 px provides sufficient quality for good-looking panoramas on almost all screens, although you cannot expect much from "zoom". I would almost go as far as to say that zoom is kinda useless or un-interesting for spherical panoramas anyway. Furthermore, if your server has reasonable memory resources, it is likely X3 is able to create resized preview images from your 4096 px images. If you however upload LARGER images (for instance 8192 px), it is unlikely your server has the capacity to resize the images, and there will therefore be errors. On a side-note, if your server does have sufficient memory resources, it would be possible for you to upload 8192 px panoramas, and then have X3 create 4096 px versions for devices that only support 4096. However, if you really need ultra high-res panoramas, you should consider using multi-file "cube" format instead.

For the sake of comparison, we have one equirectangular source uploaded at 8196 px for testing. As you will see, file size is almost quadruple that of the 4096 px images. Furthermore, only devices that support textures >= 8196 px will be able to load this file, while other devices will load the 4096 px "fallback" version. Although offering a higher level of zoom, unless are on some ultra-high-res screen (eg 3000 px +), this size provides little benefit.
https://panorama.photo.gallery/#pano=4.sunset

Even smaller images (down to 2048 px) provide "acceptable" quality levels on most screens for basic 360/180 spherical view. Example from a 3200 x 1600 px image at 890kb:
https://panorama.photo.gallery/#pano=3.dubrovnik

JPG Compression
With low or no compression, your 4096 px JPG's may weigh in at 5-15 MB, which is a bit much since they need to entirely load into browser before they can display. Because panoramas are "rendered" and do not display on a per-pixel basis in the visitors browser and because a 4096 px is normally zoomed out, I would recommend using relatively high jpg compression for your 4096 px equirectangular image sources. In our demo, our sources are mostly around ~1MB. I optimized our test images with imageoptim at 79%.

Recommendation :star:
Resize your rectangular JPG sources to 4096 px with slightly more compression that you are used to.

How will it work in X3?
Simply upload your equirectangular images into any X3 gallery and they will be detected by the panorama plugin.

+ PROS
  • Single-file panorama source. Simply upload into X3 gallery.
- CONS
* To fully understand the "cons" of equirectangular, please refer to advantages of "cube" format in next section.
  • Texture width limitation (4096 px).
  • Does not load progressively like multi-file cube format.
  • Does not support multi-levels, eg. loading source data based on screen resolution and current zoom level.
  • Not really a format for "zoom".
---
MULTI-RES CUBE FORMAT

https://panorama.photo.gallery/#cube
Over to multi-file cube panoramas, this format has a few advantages not available to the equirectangular format. The main disadvantage of the cube format, is that you will have to manually upload a directory of tiles exported from a tool (eg. Marzipano tool), so it requires more work and preparation on your side. As you will see in the demo, CUBE panoramas look very similar to the equirectangular panoramas. However, there are several advantages / PROS:

+ Progressive Loading
Since a cube panorama consists of multiple files, tiles will load progressively into the pano viewer on-demand as they are required by the current screen/view/zoom. This means the initial view will often display faster than equirectangular, and files will load progressively as the panorama is navigated.

+ Multiple Levels / Multi-resolution
Cube panoramas support multiple levels of resolution. The advantage of this is not primarily the extended level of zoom, but the ability to load a specific cube level depending on the resolution of the display. For example, a high-resolution screen (eg. macbook 15" retina 2880 px) may skip level 1 and 2, immediately loading level 3 into view, as the screen is capable of taking advantage of the higher resolution at default zoom/FOV. Smaller screens may initially load level 1. Multiple levels does not necessarily mean there is more zoom, although, depending on the amount of levels, there is often more zoom than with equirectangular. The amount of zoom available is inversely proportional with the screen display resolution ... For example, an ultra-high-res 5000 px will likely have very little or no zoom at all, because the pano is already displaying at it's maxResolution value (to prevent pixelation). Meanwhile, a non-retina low-resolution 640 px mobile device will have a large amount of zoom, in which case cube-levels will load progressively as visitor zooms in.

+ Optimal Loading
Considering the above, different devices will be able to load cube level depending on their screen resolution.

+ No Size Limits
Since cube panoramas are cut into multiple files, there are no size limitations to worry about.

- CONS
As mentioned, implementing cube format panoramas requires more effort and preparation:

How will it work in X3?
To enable cube format panoramas in an X3 gallery:
  1. Upload a placeholder preview image for the panorama. Usually an equirectangular image representation.
  2. By FTP, upload the folder with the cube tiles, and give it the same name as the image. For example "pano.jpg" should have a directory "pano".
  3. Enable the panorama plugin for the page.
X3 will detect that the image has a folder with the same name and interpret it as a multi-file cube panorama. It will then count the amount of folders within the tiles directory, so that it can automatically create the configuration for the cube format. Done!

PS! Although X3 may support cube formats exported from other tools, for now you should use the Marzipano tool to prepare your multi-resolution cube format panoramas for X3.

Equirectangular vs Cube
For comparison, I have added examples of the same panorama in both equirectangular and cube format:
https://panorama.photo.gallery/#pano=10.walls
https://panorama.photo.gallery/#pano=11.walls

* Apart from the subtle advantages of the cube format, you will likely find they look almost identical.

---
MULTI-RES FLAT
https://panorama.photo.gallery/#flat  :clap: Thanks @GeoPal for many of the examples.
Flat (non-spherical) multi-resolution images are not really "panoramas", but they use the same "viewer" interface. The main objective of multi-res flat images, is to be able to serve extremely large images (often referred to as "gigapixel") with extreme zoom levels. This is achieved by progressively serving the tiles for the image on-demand based on screen and zoom-level. Adding multi-res flat images to X3 is similar in preparation as the panorama cube format, but with one additional step: Since X3 does not know the tile size, levels or folder name structure, this needs to be provided as a configuration.

How will it work in X3?
To enable multi-resolution flat images in an X3 gallery:
  1. Upload a placeholder preview image.
  2. By FTP, upload the folder with the tiles, and give it the same name as the image. For example "flat.jpg" should have a directory "flat".
  3. Enable the panorama plugin for the page.
  4. Go to page Gallery > Edit mode and add pano configuration parameters for the image.
The flat pano configuration will at it's minimum look something like below:
Code
tilesize=2048&width=1024,3072,6144,12288,23552&height=404,1208,2416,4832,9260
The values are derived from the XML file created by the tool used to create the tiles. For example KRpano:
https://panorama.photo.gallery/images/1 ... s/pano.xml


Panorama tiles loaded from remote CDN
https://panorama.photo.gallery/#pano=18.lakatnik
Thanks to @GeoPal, it has been made clear that many gigapixel panoramas have their images hosted on a CDN or remote storage like Amazon. We have therefore included an option to load tiles from a remote source path. Config for the panorama example above with tiles loaded from Amazon storage:
Code
tilesize=2048&url_format=l{z}/{y}/l{z}_{y}_{x}.jpg&zero_padding=2&index_start=1&width=1024,2560,5120,10240,20480,39936,80384&height=450,1126,2252,4502,9004,17558,35340&path=https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/gigapanos/Lakatnik/Lakatnik.tiles
Single-image FLAT panorama :thumbsdown:
https://panorama.photo.gallery/#pano=19.canal
For the sake of testing, I have also implemented a single-file flat (non-spherical) panorama. The advantage, as with the equirectangular format, is that a single file can simply be uploaded into X3, without any configuration. However, I have concluded that this feature is USELESS because of the following reasons:
  • Considering it is a single massive file, it is often too large to load as a single file.
  • As with the equirectangular format, only a fraction of browsers ~30% [ref] currently support textures larger than 4096 px. Thus, if you have to limit your image to 4096 px, it is really nothing more than a large image.
  • It is unlikely your server has the memory capacity to resize images at 8192 px anyway.
  • Ultimately, there is really not much advantage to viewing this image in a "panorama viewer".
---

Panoramas in custom html content
The above covers panoramas in the X3 gallery, but you will also be able to open your panoramas from your X3 page's content section by using some basic html tags:

Open an equirectangular panorama:
Code
<a href="{{path}}equirect.jpg" data-pano>Click here</a>
Opening a multi-res cube or flat panorama will require some options.
Code
<a href="{{path}}cube.jpg" data-pano data-pano-options="option1=X&option2=X">Click here</a>
You may of course use an image for the link. For example
Code
<a href="{{path}}equirect.jpg" data-pano><img src="{{path}}equirect.jpg" alt=""></a>
* It is unlikely we will support embedding panoramas directly into a page instead of opening in the full viewer. I can't see how this is useful in any way, as it is clumsy to navigate a panorama embedded at specific width/height, especially on mobile, and clearly desirable to open the panoramas at full window size.

---

Panorama Global Options
There will be a range of global settings that can be applied from the panorama-plugin settings, some perhaps also on a per-page basis. These options will mostly include options for the interface, like buttons, controls and speed.

Per-Panorama Options
You will not be required to add configuration for equirectangular or cube panoramas added to an X3 gallery. However, there will be several optional OPTIONS available for you to apply on a per-panorama basis. Options for panoramas added to the gallery will be available from a page's Gallery > Edit mode (alongside image titles and descriptions). Options for panoramas added to a page's "content", will be available to set from attribute data-pano-options="{OPTIONS}". The format of options will be parameter style:
Code
yaw=0.5&pitch=0.33&fov=1
There may be dozens of per-panorama options, some that only apply to spherical panoramas (equirectangular and cube), and some that only apply to flat gigapixel panoramas.

---

How does X3 detect a panorama and panorama type in the gallery?
When the panorama plugin is enabled for a gallery, X3 will check for panoramas in the following order:
  1. If the uploaded image has config parameters, X3 will check the config, which may refer to a flat panorama.
  2. If the image has a sibling folder with identical name, it will be considered a multi-file spherical cube panorama.
  3. If the image is exactly 2:1 aspect (360/180), it will be considered a single-file equirectangular panorama.
  4. If none of the above apply, it will be considered a NORMAL image, that opens in the standard X3 popup.
---

A few additional observations:

Multi-file equirectangular:thumbsdown:
Technically, it would be possible to serve multiple size levels for the equirectangular format. For example, you could upload an 8192 px image and X3 could create intermediate sizes 4096 and 2048, which would benefit smaller screens and/or devices that don't support high-res textures. HOWEVER (emphasis), this seems like an unproductive approach: 1. Your server will struggle to resize images that big, 2. Zooming in/out would start loading and replacing large single-file textures and 3. It's simply inferior to the progressive "cube" format.

Panorama Intro Plugin :sunglasses:
I was thinking, wouldn't it be cool to create a panorama-intro plugin, similar to the video-intro plugin, but using a panorama? There are some pitfalls with this, as in limited controls (because it has to go "under" the menu), CPU usage (since it will autorotate also after visitor scrolls past it), and it may not work in all browsers.

MaxResolution, maxVFov, maxHFov and startFov :thinking:
As mentioned initially in this post, spherical panoramas are not an exact science. Technically, it's just a flat distorted image stretched into a spherical view. There are defaults for maxResolution (how far one can zoom into the image), and FOV (field of view), but these are just "smart" defaults. Essentially, on initial load, you want as much FOV as possible, but without having the panorama seem "warped" at the far left and right. Zoom and FOV will also depend on the size and aspect of the screen that the panorama is being viewed from, and to some degree the nature of the image itself. You will be able to set these optional parameters globally and on a per-panorama basis.

Will hotspots be supported?
No, not for now. Hotspots are added from various panorama publisher tools, explicitly for their own panorama viewer. It is a bit much to expect X3 to read configurations created for 3rd party panorama viewers.


That's it for now folks! Happy to get any feedback. I will start implementing into X3 shortly ...
 
User avatar
GeoPal
Experienced
Posts: 200
Joined: 20 Dec 2007, 12:56

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

25 Sep 2018, 08:57

Thanks Karl, this will be fun to read and (later) use. I will make sure more panoramic photographers see that there is a new way to present online panoramas.

edit-1:
I really like the option to switch between projections- flat vs interactive. Also that you have the option/arrow to switch to next panorama from already loaded one, which to some extent is like having a "general" hotspot to the next panorama if you have several ones.
edit-2:
- Maybe in the button config a home button could be useful for several reasons! 
- In latest Pano2VR there is an option called quick share. What it does is essentially set a start point and fov limit and then writes it into the files and when you upload it to FB it has already a set start point view and rotation limit, etc. No need to adjust anything in FB at all. Maybe being able to read such metadata could be useful and make the config manual work for spherical panoramas a bit less. Just an idea, don't know if marzipano behaves like that. Whatever it is, at least being able to pick starting point will be useful.
- hope to be able to make a config file for other than marzipano tiles for spherical panos, many people have droplets from other pano softwares, which create tiles fast and offline.
- About speed of autorotation I hope there will be a setting in the config. Now I think it is too fast. For 10 years MANY people have complained they get dizzy watching the pano spin. If autorotation is OFF by default, there are MANY users who will not bother to drag and spin the pano...and will never know it is interactive. FB has this shaking icon prompting you to take action and watch the content. So I personally prefer autorotation with lower speed as best of both worlds :)
- I like the option to click-view at some point. A bit confusing at the beginning, but great fun after that.
- For flat panos I don't know if it possible to have "focused-zoom" function- when you scroll to zoom in/out with your mouse this to happen where the cursor is, not "general" zoom, because after that general zoom you need to combine it with drag to get to the desired place.
- maybe on mobile devices to have the lower strip with arrows for next/previous panorama in regular screen mode also and in the skin to be able to hide all controls but a small button revealing them all again. Maybe these ALL are part of the general options you were talking about. 
p.s. I want to make sure you know that even like this it is VERY nice and useful (the interface), these are "small" touches and my personal opinion.
Best, G
 
User avatar
mjau-mjau
X3 Wizard
Posts: 11658
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 03:37

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

26 Sep 2018, 00:52

@GeoPal, thanks for feedback. Some quick comments:
GeoPal wrote:I really like the option to switch between projections- flat vs interactive.
Was easy since X3 already has the standard X3 popup available for images, and it needs to be ready for any X3 gallery page anyway. In the case of panoramas, X3 will simply open the panorama-viewer instead of the X3 popup if it detects a panorama. I am not 100% sure the switch-button is useful for average visitors.
GeoPal wrote:Also that you have the option/arrow to switch to next panorama from already loaded one, which to some extent is like having a "general" hotspot to the next panorama if you have several ones.
:) From an X3 gallery perspective, that is simply from the necessity of being able to navigate between items, just like the standard X3 popup. Since X3 is not a publisher tool, the X3 panorama plugin will not immediately support "hotspots" or "pointer links" merged onto panoramas, but there may be ways we can achieve that later.
GeoPal wrote:Maybe in the button config a home button could be useful for several reasons!
From my perspective, a "Home" button would be the same as closing the panorama-viewer, going back to the gallery page. I assume you mean "home" should navigate to panorama #1? Even if the visitor clicked to open panorama #4?
GeoPal wrote:In latest Pano2VR there is an option called quick share. What it does is essentially set a start point and fov limit and then writes it into the files and when you upload it to FB it has already a set start point view and rotation limit, etc. No need to adjust anything in FB at all. Maybe being able to read such metadata could be useful and make the config manual work for spherical panoramas a bit less. Just an idea, don't know if marzipano behaves like that. Whatever it is, at least being able to pick starting point will be useful.
This is complicated, because now we are speaking of a TOOL that stores EXIF data values in the image, specifically for the Facebook application. Not impossible of course. However, this data would have to be stored in the original uploaded image/preview that represents the cube format. How do you upload panoramas to Facebook anyway? On a side note:
  • Marzipano tool DOES support setting start positions, although X3 does not currently support their exported data file, which is created specifically for the published viewer project. Same as other export tools. We might add support for Marzipano config files, especially since they are in modern JSON format [example], unlike those ugly XML formats from other tools.
  • You WILL currently be able to set start positions per-panorama in X3. Not interactively, but by parameter values as explained in previous post. For example:
    Code
    fov=0.5&yaw=1&pitch=0.7
GeoPal wrote:hope to be able to make a config file for other than marzipano tiles for spherical panos, many people have droplets from other pano softwares, which create tiles fast and offline.
If you have an exported project, I would be happy to give it a shot. Likely it will require a CONFIG, similar to the FLAT format.

FYI, the Marzipano Tool is in fact an OFFLINE tool. It does not upload anything, and all processing happens on client side using modern browser technology. There is no reason to believe this tool is much slower or less capable than other tools. The benefit is that we may at some point be able to support configs and hotspots created from the Marzipano Tool.
GeoPal wrote:About speed of autorotation I hope there will be a setting in the config. Now I think it is too fast. For 10 years MANY people have complained they get dizzy watching the pano spin. If autorotation is OFF by default, there are MANY users who will not bother to drag and spin the pano...and will never know it is interactive. FB has this shaking icon prompting you to take action and watch the content. So I personally prefer autorotation with lower speed as best of both worlds :)
Yes it will be an option. In fact, I already reduced the default speed drastically from the default values of the examples I was working with. I see now it can be reduced much more though ... I believe a trickle speed is sufficient to ignite the visitors interest. Do you have any online examples of panoramas from other tools initiated with autorotate?
GeoPal wrote:For flat panos I don't know if it possible to have "focused-zoom" function- when you scroll to zoom in/out with your mouse this to happen where the cursor is, not "general" zoom, because after that general zoom you need to combine it with drag to get to the desired place.
It's a good idea, although at this point, I don't think this functionality is easy to implement. The "zoom" function, regardless of how it is accessed (mousewheel, trackpad, button, keyboard), will by default zoom in based on the current center of the panorama. This is native behavior of the renderer. Is this behavior already invented in other panorama viewers?
GeoPal wrote:maybe on mobile devices to have the lower strip with arrows for next/previous panorama in regular screen mode also and in the skin to be able to hide all controls but a small button revealing them all again. Maybe these ALL are part of the general options you were talking about.
I'm not 100% sure what you mean "have the lower strip with arrows for next/previous panorama in regular screen mode also". The bottom bar is also available in desktop screens. The only difference between desktop/mobile, is that mobile does not require the in/out/left/right/up/down buttons (because one would navigate by touch).

Furthermore, our interface already has a more intricate show/hide than other viewers. The interface will autohide (after 3 seconds) when no mouse activity, for example when using keyboard, or when simply viewing autorotate. The same goes for mobile after 3 seconds of touch-inactivity. The exception is when the topbar or bottom bar is "focused" (eg. touched or hovered by mouse), in which case the bar will not hide because it is considered "in use". Also, when navigating to previous or next scene, the title bar will re-appear (for at least 3 seconds) because it seems logical that the visitor may want to see basic name/detail of the new panorama they navigated to.

I'm not initially a fan of click-to-toggle navigation elements, because it doesn't seem as intuitive and incurs an additional click-factor for the visitor.
GeoPal wrote:p.s. I want to make sure you know that even like this it is VERY nice and useful (the interface), these are "small" touches and my personal opinion.
It's really great to have all your feedback GeoPal! We aim for perfection. With all the technical factors and complexity of panoramas, it is unlikely we can suit all requirements on initial release. But the X3 panorama plugin can evolve over time.
 
User avatar
GeoPal
Experienced
Posts: 200
Joined: 20 Dec 2007, 12:56

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

26 Sep 2018, 01:30

mjau-mjau wrote: @GeoPal, thanks for feedback. Some quick comments:
GeoPal wrote:I really like the option to switch between projections- flat vs interactive.
Was easy since X3 already has the standard X3 popup available for images, and it needs to be ready for any X3 gallery page anyway. In the case of panoramas, X3 will simply open the panorama-viewer instead of the X3 popup if it detects a panorama. I am not 100% sure the switch-button is useful for average visitors.
Equirectangular panoramas when done right have their own beauty, so I am sure there will be people that apppreciate it from a photographic point of view.
mjau-mjau wrote:
GeoPal wrote:Maybe in the button config a home button could be useful for several reasons!
From my perspective, a "Home" button would be the same as closing the panorama-viewer, going back to the gallery page. I assume you mean "home" should navigate to panorama #1? Even if the visitor clicked to open panorama #4?
No, by home button I mean set again the initial view. With this carousel QA keyboard shortcuts and not only people can mess-up big time and not able to "reset" the panorama to a more convinient way to view, and not only. Usually the most interesting part of the pano is the initial view.
mjau-mjau wrote:
GeoPal wrote:In latest Pano2VR there is an option called quick share. What it does is essentially set a start point and fov limit and then writes it into the files and when you upload it to FB it has already a set start point view and rotation limit, etc. No need to adjust anything in FB at all. Maybe being able to read such metadata could be useful and make the config manual work for spherical panoramas a bit less. Just an idea, don't know if marzipano behaves like that. Whatever it is, at least being able to pick starting point will be useful.
This is complicated, because now we are speaking of a TOOL that stores EXIF data values in the image, specifically for the Facebook application. Not impossible of course. However, this data would have to be stored in the original uploaded image/preview that represents the cube format. How do you upload panoramas to Facebook anyway? On a side note:
  • Marzipano tool DOES support setting start positions, although X3 does not currently support their exported data file, which is created specifically for the published viewer project. Same as other export tools. We might add support for Marzipano config files, especially since they are in modern JSON format [example], unlike those ugly XML formats from other tools.
  • You WILL currently be able to set start positions per-panorama in X3. Not interactively, but by parameter values as explained in previous post. For example:
    Code
    fov=0.5&yaw=1&pitch=0.7
That is great for the start position. About fb upload, you again upload 2:1 panorama or if you want narrower view pano2vr crops it but somehow makes fb know what portion of the sphere it is. I can send a sample photo that does have the info inside for test
mjau-mjau wrote:
GeoPal wrote:hope to be able to make a config file for other than marzipano tiles for spherical panos, many people have droplets from other pano softwares, which create tiles fast and offline.
If you have an exported project, I would be happy to give it a shot. Likely it will require a CONFIG, similar to the FLAT format.
I am sure you have already tried it from examples and it worked, which is great! (with some config file work)
mjau-mjau wrote: FYI, the Marzipano Tool is in fact an OFFLINE tool. It does not upload anything, and all processing happens on client side using modern browser technology. There is no reason to believe this tool is much slower or less capable than other tools. The benefit is that we may at some point be able to support configs and hotspots created from the Marzipano Tool.
Didn't know that it is offline, thanks, I will deffinitely try it!
mjau-mjau wrote:
GeoPal wrote:About speed of autorotation I hope there will be a setting in the config. Now I think it is too fast. For 10 years MANY people have complained they get dizzy watching the pano spin. If autorotation is OFF by default, there are MANY users who will not bother to drag and spin the pano...and will never know it is interactive. FB has this shaking icon prompting you to take action and watch the content. So I personally prefer autorotation with lower speed as best of both worlds :)
Yes it will be an option. In fact, I already reduced the default speed drastically from the default values of the examples I was working with. I see now it can be reduced much more though ... I believe a trickle speed is sufficient to ignite the visitors interest. Do you have any online examples of panoramas from other tools initiated with autorotate?
Yes, here is one tour with some special features and autorotate: http://panomagic.eu/roca/
mjau-mjau wrote:
GeoPal wrote:For flat panos I don't know if it possible to have "focused-zoom" function- when you scroll to zoom in/out with your mouse this to happen where the cursor is, not "general" zoom, because after that general zoom you need to combine it with drag to get to the desired place.
It's a good idea, although at this point, I don't think this functionality is easy to implement. The "zoom" function, regardless of how it is accessed (mousewheel, trackpad, button, keyboard), will by default zoom in based on the current center of the panorama. This is native behavior of the renderer. Is this behavior already invented in other panorama viewers?
yes, krpano player supports that, haven't checked Pano2VR: http://panomagic.eu/gigapixel/Brasov/
mjau-mjau wrote:
GeoPal wrote:maybe on mobile devices to have the lower strip with arrows for next/previous panorama in regular screen mode also and in the skin to be able to hide all controls but a small button revealing them all again. Maybe these ALL are part of the general options you were talking about.
I'm not 100% sure what you mean "have the lower strip with arrows for next/previous panorama in regular screen mode also". The bottom bar is also available in desktop screens. The only difference between desktop/mobile, is that mobile does not require the in/out/left/right/up/down buttons (because one would navigate by touch).
What I mean is bottom bar is not available in mobile devices until you hit fullscreen, thus you have to close the pano and then click-opne the next one...I am sure many people don't go fullscreen and won't see the bottom navigation bar with name and previous/next arrows.
mjau-mjau wrote: Furthermore, our interface already has a more intricate show/hide than other viewers. The interface will autohide (after 3 seconds) when no mouse activity, for example when using keyboard, or when simply viewing autorotate. The same goes for mobile after 3 seconds of touch-inactivity. The exception is when the topbar or bottom bar is "focused" (eg. touched or hovered by mouse), in which case the bar will not hide because it is considered "in use". Also, when navigating to previous or next scene, the title bar will re-appear (for at least 3 seconds) because it seems logical that the visitor may want to see basic name/detail of the new panorama they navigated to.

I'm not initially a fan of click-to-toggle navigation elements, because it doesn't seem as intuitive and incurs an additional click-factor for the visitor.
About your last statement- yes, one more click but clears the clutter. I think for the X3 pano plugin this is OK like that, but look at the art gallery tour example above and you will get what I mean :)
mjau-mjau wrote:
GeoPal wrote:p.s. I want to make sure you know that even like this it is VERY nice and useful (the interface), these are "small" touches and my personal opinion.
It's really great to have all your feedback GeoPal! We aim for perfection. With all the technical factors and complexity of panoramas, it is unlikely we can suit all requirements on initial release. But the X3 panorama plugin can evolve over time.
Great work, thanks!
G
 
User avatar
mjau-mjau
X3 Wizard
Posts: 11658
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 03:37

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

26 Sep 2018, 03:34

GeoPal wrote:Equirectangular panoramas when done right have their own beauty, so I am sure there will be people that apppreciate it from a photographic point of view.
Agreed.
GeoPal wrote:No, by home button I mean set again the initial view. With this carousel QA keyboard shortcuts and not only people can mess-up big time and not able to "reset" the panorama to a more convinient way to view, and not only. Usually the most interesting part of the pano is the initial view.
True. I will implement some kinda "reset view" button, enabled or disabled by default, I don't know yet.

On a side note, personally I am a fan of limiting the interface as a design concept. For the owners of the panoramas OK, but for normal visitors, how are they supposed to react to an interface like the below? It looks like an airplane cockpit and is unproductive for average-joe visitors:
Image

I agree there is a point to satisfy the requirements of experienced panorama users (often owners), but one should definitely consider the broader audience also.
GeoPal wrote:That is great for the start position. About fb upload, you again upload 2:1 panorama or if you want narrower view pano2vr crops it but somehow makes fb know what portion of the sphere it is. I can send a sample photo that does have the info inside for test
I will be happy to take a look, but apart from maybe start coordinates, it is unlikely this is within the X3 panorama plugin scope. You are asking the X3 plugin to support advanced Facebook-native behavior, created from a publisher tool pano2vr.
GeoPal wrote:I am sure you have already tried it from examples and it worked, which is great! (with some config file work)
I have tried it from FLAT projects, but not from a spherical project yet. It will probably work with a config. I would need to test a sample project be certain.
GeoPal wrote:Yes, here is one tour with some special features and autorotate: http://panomagic.eu/roca/
Thanks. I already reduced the speed from 0.1 to 0.03 in the demo. A few unrelated comments in regards to the link above:
  • Thumbnails might be a good idea, although I would prefer to have the thumbnails show only on mouse hover top or bottom screen. If not, they create too much distraction, and it's clumsy to locate and toggle the show/hide controls button. From the perspective of a "visitor", thumbnails are not that useful anyway ... I can't really see from the thumbs what is there, and I'd preferably just navigate NEXT scenes.
  • Double-click to go fullscreen might be an interesting feature.
  • Share button does not seem to work?
  • Don't you feel the speed of zoom/up/down/left/right buttons and key controls are INSANE? I can rotate 360 degrees in half a second and it's impossible to see anything while navigating. Clicking zoom basically takes me all the way in or all the way out, without time to consider anything in between.
GeoPal wrote:yes, krpano player supports that, haven't checked Pano2VR: http://panomagic.eu/gigapixel/Brasov/
That's cool. I don't think Marzipano supports this out-of-the-box, but I will add it to my notes.
GeoPal wrote:What I mean is bottom bar is not available in mobile devices until you hit fullscreen, thus you have to close the pano and then click-opne the next one...I am sure many people don't go fullscreen and won't see the bottom navigation bar with name and previous/next arrows.
You are seeing something I don't see? I am testing from iOS (iphone + ipad). They don't even support "fullscreen" (considering a website is essentially already fullscreen on iOS after scroll). Assume you are using Android? It doesn't look like the below?
Image
GeoPal wrote:About your last statement- yes, one more click but clears the clutter. I think for the X3 pano plugin this is OK like that, but look at the art gallery tour example above and you will get what I mean :)
Well, let's just say I have very strong inhibitions about the design of the interface you are referring to. In my opinion, it is not planned or well-designed. It is created by a developer or added by the panorama-owner with the simple rhetoric "ok lets just add all buttons for the visitor and our job is done!". The visitor won't require half those buttons, and then let's add another button to toggle the interface. You won't see anything like that from large services like Google, Flickr or Facebook, who spend time and money creating productive user-interfaces. I don't think most average end-users will bother thinking "hmm, ok let me see, where is the button to HIDE THE CONTROLS?". They will just use it as is, and that's what one should design for.

Just a personal opinion ;)
 
User avatar
GeoPal
Experienced
Posts: 200
Joined: 20 Dec 2007, 12:56

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

26 Sep 2018, 04:06

Yes Karl, on android it doesn't look like that, unfortunately. That's why the confusion.
About the interface- minimum controls with no hide/reveal button is OK like I already said. Like you've realized, the specialized software has some options, which if not used wisely can cause confusion for regular user.
Double click for fullscreen is NICE, yes!
I think thubmnails will be too much, but you have to see how it works and if it will not hide too much of the panorama.
I will send spherical example from krpano soon.
Cheers, G
Screenshot_20180926-105916.jpg
Screenshot_20180926-105916.jpg (429.16 KiB) Viewed 2110 times
 
User avatar
mjau-mjau
X3 Wizard
Posts: 11658
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 03:37

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

26 Sep 2018, 05:24

I will check Android, and test the cube panoramas from PM. Thanks!
 
User avatar
mjau-mjau
X3 Wizard
Posts: 11658
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 03:37

Re: support for 360 degree images with navigation

01 Oct 2018, 05:48

A few interface fixes.
https://panorama.photo.gallery/
  • Fixed bug on mobile device orientation change.
  • Fixed bug where interface (close button) was under scrollbars.
  • Scrollbars are now automatically hidden on panorama open.
  • Fixed bug where interface bottom bar was hidden outside of view on Android?